research-lab-az1-monday-check-in-2026-01-19-10-58-est-notes-by-gemini

Jan 19, 2026

AZ1-Monday Check-In - Transcript

00:00:00

 
Will McKinley: Hey, morning.
Hal Casteel: Hey there, Will.
Will McKinley: Hey.
Hal Casteel: Can you hear me?
Will McKinley: Yes, I can hear you
Hal Casteel: Okay, let me look like I got my I
Will McKinley: now.
Hal Casteel: took uh Somaya to the airport this morning. She's on her way back to the US and uh as soon as I got back to the apartment, you know, I was had, you know, I was going to call her phone and the phone was in the behind the driver's seat. She left her she left her backpack, two phones,
Will McKinley: No.
Hal Casteel: meaning she doesn't have a phone, doesn't have her driver's license, credit cards, and all her stuff when she gets back, which is totally nuts.
Will McKinley: Well, can she even
Hal Casteel: And she No,
Will McKinley: fly?
Hal Casteel: she had all her, you know, she had she keeps we we have these little pouches where we carry our, you know, international travel documents. So, she had that around her neck.
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: And uh it's always funny cuz she's like a denmother when whenever we're apart and she's like do this, do that, do this, do that.
 
 

00:02:43

 
Hal Casteel: Then she forgets her purse. You know, it's like it was,
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: you know, we left for the airport around 4 this morning, so I didn't really sleep last night. And then uh and then I was like sorting out,
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: you know, I didn't have her flight was at 8:00, so I didn't have time to get all the way back to the airport. And then how was I going to get in touch with her? You know what I mean? It was like one of these weird impossible.
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: I never, you know, one of those situations like uh no,
Will McKinley: Gosh.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: this
Will McKinley: Does she have a laptop though or something?
Hal Casteel: she is not carrying her laptop.
Will McKinley: Oh my gosh.
Hal Casteel: Um,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: s***.
Will McKinley: How do like how do you even get by
Hal Casteel: well, she Yeah. So,
Will McKinley: it?
Hal Casteel: so what she did is she then apparently got a hold of somebody with their phone and then
 
 

00:03:37

 
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: called me, but I don't answer phone numbers that don't look like numbers I know. I don't know about you,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yes.
Hal Casteel: but so Oh,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: What happened?
Will McKinley: Oh gosh.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Sorry, I'm just parachuting to the store.
Hal Casteel: Somaya, when I got back to the apartment after dropping her off at the airport this morning, I left at 4 this morning, took her to the airport, got back, uh, we've had some really heavy rain today, and so the traffic was horrendous getting back, and I got back at just before 7:00. Her flight was at 8. And I called while I was still downstairs in the car,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Mhm.
Hal Casteel: I called her phone and it rang in the car.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: In the back
Hal Casteel: She left her backpack, her credit cards,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: seat.
Hal Casteel: her driver's license,
Will McKinley: Oh my gosh.
Hal Casteel: her her two phones.
Will McKinley: How's she gonna Yeah.
Hal Casteel: So, yeah.
Will McKinley: You're going to have to get fired or
 
 

00:04:24

 
Hal Casteel: And I had given her I and you know,
Will McKinley: something.
Hal Casteel: I had my house key. Uh I mean, I'm like rigorous around this kind of stuff.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah. I mean,
Hal Casteel: I have everything tied to everything.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: my mom I think I think my there's a house key at my parents,
Hal Casteel: Yeah. No, no,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: you know.
Hal Casteel: but I think she has the house key, but it was just uh Anyway,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Mhm.
Hal Casteel: kind of a real baboon of Matias,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: so it's kind of crazy. So, yeah. So,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Crazy.
Hal Casteel: I mean, I need to get in touch. I think your mom is going to pick her up.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah, I think so. Later
Hal Casteel: Yeah. Right now,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: tonight.
Hal Casteel: I need to make sure that your mom has all the details. She's not.
 
 

00:05:02

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Wait one second.
Hal Casteel: She she'll figure out how to call it my but she doesn't have WhatsApp on
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: In half a
Hal Casteel: uh I see I have WhatsApp I have everything on everything my
Will McKinley: Yeah. Yeah.
Hal Casteel: computers and blah blah blah right I never carry only one computer I carry two I have two
Will McKinley: Right. Yeah.
Hal Casteel: phones you know I don't know with her
Will McKinley: Does she So, she has a computer.
Hal Casteel: no see that's the other yeah so it was like it was like she dropped into a dark hole
Will McKinley: Doesn't even have a computer. Oh my gosh. Well,
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: you're gonna get a a burner phone then and set that up.
Hal Casteel: Well, that's what I was going to tell her. Yeah. Yeah. Go to And I was going to tell her to go to Costco and then I was going through her purse and her Costco cards
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: and
Will McKinley: Oh my gosh.
 
 

00:05:47

 
Will McKinley: Yeah. How does she do it? You're gonna have to uh buy it over the phone with her card and then uh walk out.
Hal Casteel: yeah, I mean, we'll we'll sort it out. I mean, you know, once she's back.
Will McKinley: Man, what a nightmare
Hal Casteel: But anyway,
Will McKinley: though.
Hal Casteel: what what a way to start the I mean, wasn't really a way to start the day. It was a way to end yesterday.
Will McKinley: Yeah. Yeah. H
Hal Casteel: And then I finally laid down and uh fell asleep for about three hours.
Will McKinley: brutal.
Hal Casteel: I'm a little tired. Um but um I've been working on the deployment and
Will McKinley: My gosh.
Hal Casteel: uh it's it's interesting you know like as you get into like what is administration for a multi-tenant multi-user situation the admin pages are
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: actually have you ever kind of scoped out and built an admin situation like
Will McKinley: Yeah. I mean,
Hal Casteel: that.
Will McKinley: that's mostly that's a lot of what I do.
 
 

00:06:53

 
Hal Casteel: That's what you're doing at Grail, right?
Will McKinley: Yeah,
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: I build ops tools a lot. So, and and it's always a question of uh you know,
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: how do you manage the multi-tenant stuff? And and in fact, most implementations are not they're not not actually like it feels like they're they're they're still way behind the standard, you know, like um like for example Yeah.
Hal Casteel: That's what I was wondering. Are are there, you know, because I', as I've been doing it, it's been more kind of organic. You know, I was trying to keep it as simple as possible. And then I get into these situations. Well, I need that, right?
Will McKinley: Yeah. Yeah.
Hal Casteel: And which and how do I keep it from feeling like a bunch of
Will McKinley: Yeah. You know.
Hal Casteel: bolt-ons basically at that point? You know what I mean?
Will McKinley: Yeah. And I I've seen failures also like with cross account uh stuff and everything.
 
 

00:07:48

 
Will McKinley: uh you know uh so I mean the the the first question is uh or the first thing is uh understanding all of the permutations because I talk with you know advanced security people who still don't even under fully understand you know the the models are you
Hal Casteel: Right. Right.
Will McKinley: know you you've got uh first of all I always build stuff uh uh so that it's very simple uh data entity types so you've got so say say you've got orders and you've got patients and you've got uh accounts or or employers or whatever.
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: Uh then you do standard CRUD for those and then you expand that and say okay well here you got standard
Hal Casteel: Right.
Will McKinley: CRUD now I mean what does it take to do uh social media uh you know takes a you have to have a concept of mine versus someone else's it's very I mean it's the
Hal Casteel: Yeah. No, that's where it Yeah, that's what I mean. Can I show you guys kind of what where it's at at this point?
 
 

00:08:41

 
Will McKinley: Amazing.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Please. Yeah.
Hal Casteel: Sorry.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah. And and I wanted to ask you, have you have you sent um you know, Andre, the the the latest the you know, the agreement with Will's uh notes in them because I think we that's what we were holding back on
Hal Casteel: Well, I wanted to ask if Will admit Have you made any other changes,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: that.
Hal Casteel: Will, after you've No.
Will McKinley: No, no,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I haven't Yeah,
Will McKinley: that was it.
Hal Casteel: Okay.
Will McKinley: That was
Hal Casteel: All right. Yeah, I'll get it off today.
Will McKinley: it.
Hal Casteel: And yeah,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: send it off to Andre because I mean if we can get that sorted this week then we apply for EIN,
Hal Casteel: I will. Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: open bank account,
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: all the sort of things that that happen.
Will McKinley: I got to drop for a second.
Hal Casteel: All right.
 
 

00:09:17

 
Will McKinley: My I've got a I'm taking antibiotics uh for my congestion stuff. I've got, you know, they took an X-ray and uh uh I got to hit the restroom because it uh makes me hit the restroom more. So,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: All right.
Will McKinley: I'll be back in a minute.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: Okay.
Will McKinley: Sorry.
Hal Casteel: All right.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Take your time and then if you want to start showing showing a little bit and
Hal Casteel: Well, yeah. Anything any other uh Blake got in touch with me this weekend.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: the
Hal Casteel: I I owe Blake his response. Uh,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: and I wanted to ask Will if it's like hell no with Blake alto together or uh, which was kind of the sense I got the last time before I go negotiating with Blake on anything.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Mhm.
Hal Casteel: Um, any other major points of business we
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Did you did you look at the the GitHub for the the finance the financial
 
 

00:10:05

 
Hal Casteel: need?
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: model for them?
Hal Casteel: Uh yeah, but I didn't dive in deep. I I will I will today
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Okay. Yeah, like I I I created some more like uh design options for them.
Hal Casteel: for
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Let me share the window here.
Hal Casteel: Okay.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: So this this is the oh yeah see avivat
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I mean it has like you know I think oh I think these are just a design so it's not clickable right it's just to show him the the options right so there's this one which is the current design you know blue theme with some borders then we have
Hal Casteel: How much how much you know from a requirement point of view did they give you in terms of what they want
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: this
Hal Casteel: from that point of
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: yeah if you go if you go on the original docs folder.
Hal Casteel: view?
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: They they have everything that they had in there.
 
 

00:10:56

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Basically they had a PowerPoint talking about the tool and then they had this let me let me share here uh project Aiv
Hal Casteel: I think I we need to check
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: where was it docs where was it arch archive outdated docs
Hal Casteel: it.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: no docs archive No. Where did they go? The original docs folder. I think it was this one. Brazil market original docs. Yeah, this this is basically what they sent me, right? So this right
Hal Casteel: Hang on one sec.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: here,
Hal Casteel: Let me get back to my screen. I was looking to see if I created the
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: and it's it's in Portuguese,
Hal Casteel: U.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: right? So yeah,
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: let me let me zoom in a little bit further here. Um,
Hal Casteel: uh what he's showing will why don't you why don't you explain what you're showing here
 
 

00:12:12

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: okay. Yeah. So Avivate,
Hal Casteel: M
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: right? That's that's the Brazilian fintech uh you know software provider in Brazil. Like they have over 300 developers in Brazil. They're now entering the US market. One of the ideas that they have is basically they've been scouting the US market a lot since they are here and now also you know possibilities for the Brazil market of developing a a financial system basically that replaces QuickBooks or is like an in between between QuickBooks and like a full ERP um but at a more affordable you know rate right so they they've they've already did a lot of research they have been in this space forever uh so they sent this which you know basically was very comprehensive you know if you go down here like it has all of the the acceptance criteria all the H.P.009-CONFIGurations everything that they wanted for it right and this is what they had used to quote it in Brazil and they they got quoted I think like a 2 million um Brazilian currency right so it's like probably 500,000 uh dollars to build it right so they got quoted that um they basically just sent me this and then they sent me like there's a few screens here integration with Kazoo which is in you know Brazil in the
 
 

00:13:33

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: US Kazoo is not relevant but like integration with played and integration with stripe and other things like that probably are are things that they're looking at uh they sent me this and they sent me this which is you know their PowerPoint presentation on on the tool and what they are thinking about it. Basically, does there a financial system like the the pro process flow, how it would work? Uh you know, some functionalities, um yeah, user access, um the the you know, pay like if subscription uh management, landing page on boarding. So they they had it very detailed this right and and that's what they had used to quote it. What they're suggesting is because you know they got quoted something that they thought was unreasonable or maybe not unreasonable it's just it's expensive right this traditional software development and what they're looking at is to do a joint venture with code detect right where you know they'll distribute it um they just wanted right now an MVP sort of some screens to show the the potential investors they want to raise money for that to help with like you know the marketing and
 
 

00:14:47

 
Hal Casteel: What what he's showing now will is what Kodate Tech has
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah, this is this is just like design options that Kodite Techch built,
Hal Casteel: built.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: right? So, they have this one which is like a current design. They have a polished corporate uh they have, you know, professional dark one and the modern gradient which I really dislike.
Hal Casteel: They actually mod these colors and stuff.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: But the other three huh?
Hal Casteel: These were in their spec.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: No, no, no, no, no. This is all code attack.
Hal Casteel: Oh, okay. Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: This is this is me,
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: right?
Hal Casteel: I would keep it just Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I I I was like he created this I know but
Hal Casteel: Keep it professional. Keep it professional. Light and dark and take out that
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: this is this is what they this is what he created originally and I was like I don't know this still feels like you know stiff AI product in production right so I was like okay give me three other alternatives for design based on best practices and actually that's that's a gap that he found out right you know I was looking for the H.P.001-AGENTS in uh code attack and it gave me oh I I extracted the conversation I
 
 

00:15:48

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: can send it to But basically he says right code detect is focused on the system for code detect is focused on code quality and whatever we don't really have H.P.001-AGENTS that are focused on good-looking UX UI. There is the generative UX one, but it's not really a visual designer, right? Like we don't have H.P.001-AGENTS specifically for visual design and and so it just used the general cloud code and it created this three.
Hal Casteel: There there is a UI UX designer in
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah, there is.
Hal Casteel: there.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: But it's different than than really like visually like like that includes like choices for typography, choices for you know visuals and stuff like that. like what we don't it ran an analysis of all the designers that we have it suggested the generative UX one but it says you know for the things that you're looking at probably the best path would just to be using cloud code I see our H.P.001-AGENTS are not specialized for you know typography decision typography
 
 

00:16:43

 
Hal Casteel: Yeah,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: decisions you know visual contrast yeah yeah
Hal Casteel: send me send me send me the uh session from that. I'll design Have you designed any
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I'll send you I need to find it but I I'm sure I exported
Hal Casteel: UIUX H.P.001-AGENTS will at all?
Will McKinley: Uh I haven't uh no I haven't uh delved into that but I you know I know what a lot of the issues are and the you know like I look at that and it looks uh you know AI generated
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah,
Will McKinley: and you
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: like this this is this is the original one they came up with and then like you know we created this
Will McKinley: know
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: three options right on when I asked it to create like three different options for that and then just to show the new look but then like the
Will McKinley: let me if I may I'll I'll you the the the the stuff that stands out to me
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: actual
Will McKinley: as okay well that's AI is you know there are questions of like okay well why is that there th those are the questions and and and what is the key thing that I'm trying to get from this dashboard right like I don't see those key things necessarily right like you know and the icon
 
 

00:17:53

 
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: usage is you know it's way over the top. It always is, right? It's like, oh, well, here's an icon, you know, and so if you squint, what I do is I squint my eyes and look at it and say, okay, well, does this tell me anything? You know,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Mhm.
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: but but it but that said, there's some pretty good stuff in there, I
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah. No, I think like the the dashboards and everything,
Will McKinley: think.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: this is what they were asking. This was from their requirements, right?
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Then the other one was just the the different visual examples, right, that I showed to them. But I mean, it it already like this is the investor demo, right? It's still not the fully functional thing,
Hal Casteel: One one one thing to ask them uh Matias and this is something I did with
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: but it's just
 
 

00:18:36

 
Hal Casteel: Koditech myself not not the platform itself but when I was to create a design specification for a given application or whatever you're building because that should
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: be one of the specifications is you know like what what colors what fonts what you know
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Mhm.
Hal Casteel: some basic stuff uh which it can create that for you Matias as a standard and then it'll hold all the pages to that same standard which is kind of
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah. Yeah.
Will McKinley: Well, the the problems are things like scroll to the top.
Hal Casteel: handy.
Will McKinley: Scroll to the top of this page. Duplicate header. You got a duplicate header. Uh, next thing. Uh, I don't need to see manage your customer relationships. I don't need to see this extra verbiage every time I go to at the top of the page.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Where this right
Will McKinley: At the top of the page, that's a double header.
Hal Casteel: this.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: here
 
 

00:19:24

 
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: you got you got both a header above with breadcrumbs and then a header below with information that is not an often used system.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: needed.
Will McKinley: So now you've spaced all the content down and then we've got this row of of stats which which aren't um kind of optimized like like where's the important stuff? Well, active customers, maybe this is a little bit better, but it should be tightened up. By the time you get to the content, you're halfway down the page because the mult the main content is below the header.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Will McKinley: It's actually more than halfway down the page, right? That's the main content.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Mhm.
Will McKinley: And you pushed it all the way down, you know, and that's what the AI often does because
Hal Casteel: Let me let me ask you something, Will, about that. Um,
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: do you like I like fixed headers where the header, you know, like you know, when he's scrolling, it's so obvious that he's in a customer page,
 
 

00:20:21

 
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: right?
Will McKinley: Well, but the the problem
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I don't I don't love her or hate him.
Will McKinley: is,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Like I I don't think like the fact that this part right here invoices when I go down and disappears. I don't think that's an
Will McKinley: yeah, I'd say for a page like this,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: issue.
Will McKinley: uh, it it's not an issue. It's it's when you've got um you know, if you've got more content and and a more often accessed area, I think, you know, I mean,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Mhm.
Will McKinley: it this feels very settings like still here. So,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Will McKinley: but I mean, not to say I think that there's great stuff in here. I'm just saying
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah. And I mean a lot of the stuff is function like this.
Will McKinley: that
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: This was just like the the investor demo based on their requirements and whatever.
Will McKinley: Yeah.
 
 

00:21:08

 
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: it created this like I feel like this is already enough to like showcase that it's working you know but basically they
Hal Casteel: What? What?
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: wanted us to create this right and you know they they'll give us participation like give us some
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: equity in their business and the the point is that now with this they can go ahead and fund raise for the full development of the platform and it's you know contractual that part of the money that they fund raise will be used for the development with code detect right so then they'll pay us development
Will McKinley: Perfect. Great.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: fees besides the equity that we receive. Um and um and yeah, I feel like they they they have the knowhow, right? They they've deployed it. The US market is new for them, so it might be a little bit different, right? This is a US version, but the original one that they've submitted was a Brazil market one.
 
 

00:21:56

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: So it's like once it's developed, it's just tweaking a little bit some regulations and stuff like that, the integrations, but it's it's easier to do, you
Hal Casteel: And part of the strategic agreement with this one will I I' I've been wanting to build
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: know,
Hal Casteel: in an ERP. I've already built in the invoicing, billing, you know, that part, you know, in the code of tech itself for the platform management, but I wanted to go all the way through revenue recognition and and basic accounting,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Mhm. Yeah.
Hal Casteel: but uh because they're, you know, they they're a neo banking fintech company and the
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I mean, they're they're small, right?
Hal Casteel: CEO Dil Dilo is a CFO uh CPA,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: But they're they're doing probably like
Hal Casteel: you know, he's he's got all the knowledge basically.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah. I mean, they're they're probably doing around $8 million a year.
Hal Casteel: Wait.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Uh, which is not that big, right?
 
 

00:22:46

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: But it's like Yeah. for I think 40 million Brazilian currency. 40 50 million Brazilian currency a year. Um but it like they already are established in Brazil. They have like 300 developers in their their their company over there. Uh the the US operations are still very tiny,
Hal Casteel: Yeah,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: but they're hoping to expand into this market uh heavily.
Hal Casteel: but it'll also give a that that means we'll get an accounting system into the platform as well,
Will McKinley: I think this is interesting.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: which
Will McKinley: I, you know, I look at this and yeah, traditionally I would have expected this to cost maybe two million that category uh US dollars.
Hal Casteel: US dollars. Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah, but they're developing it in Brazil.
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I think they got quoted two million Brazilian currency
Will McKinley: Right. Right. Right. Right.
 
 

00:23:33

 
Will McKinley: Yeah. Yeah. No, it's interesting because uh Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: there.
Will McKinley: I mean, I'm looking at that. I'm like, you know, cuz you got a lot of lot of details to iron out to be able to implement those financial pieces in particular in terms of security.
Hal Casteel: Well, particularly as we get into the full general ledger and all that kind of stuff.
Will McKinley: You got Yeah. Yeah.
Hal Casteel: Uh
Will McKinley: You can't have any mistakes. You can't have anything that's problem with it.
Hal Casteel: yeah,
Will McKinley: So, it's a little bit more fraught category, right? But it's a good category.
Hal Casteel: but it's also a great Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: If we do it and it works
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah. So,
Hal Casteel: and
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: let me let me find the markdown uh here because then I I I what I ran
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: it it also kind of proves out our fintech compliance ba ba right which yeah you
 
 

00:24:12

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: yesterday
Will McKinley: Yeah. I think it's a great target.
Hal Casteel: know one of here here's another target I found uh I was watching
Will McKinley: Nicely done, Mati.
Hal Casteel: Eric Schmidt talk with one of the podcasters that I follow the all-in do you watch the all-in podcasts at all okay you know it's a bunch of the It's the
Will McKinley: H the
Hal Casteel: PayPal crowd that get together together with uh Mus or not Mus
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: uh
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I mean this this is in Portuguese wheel but this is what I was preparing to like ask him because one of the things
Hal Casteel: Trump's
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: that I did also I did some competitive analysis and strategic recommendations right so looking mostly at like some of the AI integrated financial companies right like played ramp rex airbase b.com even quickbooks right so rippling gusto um looking at those you know g it evaluated them in terms of AI capabilities and then you know gave some recommendations to implement steel on this project right so it's
 
 

00:25:13

 
Hal Casteel: add add Netflix or Netswuite to your competition.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: like I'll add net switch to it
Hal Casteel: U because that's the
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: okay yeah I think I think yeah I I like the I was I
Hal Casteel: OB.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: was uh shocked they runative analysis too and some market research the
Hal Casteel: The good news about that though is
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: major like like when you look at small and medium enterprises in the US like there's over four million like that are not using any this financial system at all. You know, like this just Excel most like a lot of these small and medium enterprises. And when I'm talking small and medium enterprises, it's like $10 million revenues, right? It's not it's not nothing, right? Some businesses that have like $10 million revenues and everything is still being done on Excel, right? And it's just like some guy on accounting that's responsible for it. It's like the guy passes away, the guy leaves the job, they're they're screwed.
 
 

00:26:04

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: The company's screwed. They have no idea what's going on. So it's like there's a big market need and and you know it it created a lot of
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: other recommendations to add. So so like yeah is basically here is the like if they want to approve
Will McKinley: Well, let me ask you th you know,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: if I
Will McKinley: yeah,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: reject.
Will McKinley: there's a there's a big need. Uh, but how do you comms also key question, you know, because if they haven't gotten on the the system to
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah,
Will McKinley: date,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I think I think a lot of it is through like small accounting firms,
Will McKinley: you know.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: right? Like because a lot like they they'll outsource it,
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: right? They have like a small accounting office, whatever. If the accounting office is using this and says, "Hey, use this." And then it's it's it's kind of like a uh direct recommendation from
 
 

00:26:55

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: accounting offices. Like I I I met a guy that works in Tampa, St. Pet he's an he's like a CPA right registered accountant and he realized there's a need he built his own system but you know he built it for for his clients to make his job easier right so that they are already submitting stuff in a you know a format that he enjoys working with whatever but he's working with I don't know maybe 30 something clients that all are using his system and you know he doesn't have to pay whatever Quickbooks or anything like that and it doesn't add any expense to them he's just giving away for free right now uh but that's one example, right? I feel like if you you go to several of these accounting offices, you know, and do like a strategy of, you know, whatever, they get a quick kickback from, you know, customers that they recommend and something like I like some more study needs to be done on the the actual go to market of this.
 
 

00:27:46

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: But like, you know, what's what's his his name?
Will McKinley: there.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Hall, the the guy that has the the the backlinks.
Hal Casteel: Tech
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: No,
Hal Casteel: Techlink.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: the the the your friend from Google that has the back links uh you know that gets
Hal Casteel: Oh, a a a m a master.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Abe. Yeah. Yeah.
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Like Abe a Abe could probably help with something like this too to get it off the ground.
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Like I I mean like they they do a lot of like web placing.
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: So you know if anyone is looking
Hal Casteel: He's got eight million. He's got eight million.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: for
Hal Casteel: He's basically p you know he's got a like a a news s service
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: with uh you know ton tens of thousands of backlinks with news and uh 8 million viewers every month.
 
 

00:28:31

 
Hal Casteel: So he could you know his thing is to you know basically tell tell stories and then
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: that moves something new up in the ratings quite fast and quickly uh the way he's got it set up. Yeah, this would be I mean I'm definitely interested because this I I'm going to I would I've already started to specify this myself to build our own, but I you know that's so far down the road for me it was going to be probably a year out before I really get serious about it. Doing it now is good because there are at least two ERP AI replacements
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: beginning to appear in the in ramp is one of them that
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah. And then uh rippling
Hal Casteel: you rippling. Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: too.
Hal Casteel: So anyway, that it's a market space that's evolving well. We're, you know, we're not alone thinking that AI ERP unification is and and Netswuite's going all in. I mean, I'm very familiar.
 
 

00:29:27

 
Hal Casteel: I one of my guys that I mentored uh at Cornerstone has his own Netswuite consultancy now with you know 50 uh CPAs and a whole bunch of people working for him and he he's got a bunch of people in the Philippines and I asked him to uh pull down all of Oracle Netswuite's documentation which he did and shared with me. So, I have all of their latest AI integration on top of the Netswuite platform with all this technical technical understanding of that. Um, it's amazing what Oracle's going. I mean, they're investing heavily into this, but to see they always go enterprise first.
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: They don't care about the mid-market or SMBs.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: So it's actually going to leave and the bigger bigger part of that bell curve is the SMBs and the you know like what what Matias is saying those businesses that are between about 10 and 100 million you can't believe how many businesses there are in the US that are that are running on
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I still run like a mom and pop store.
 
 

00:30:35

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: a pretty basic and they what they do if they're you know they they might be
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Mhm.
Hal Casteel: multi-subsidiary and they're just running because QuickBooks doesn't handle multi-ubs zero does which is zeros out of uh New Zealand.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah, it was on the analysis there, right? Zero. But zero is is their AI capabilities are very defa like very old compared to
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: or yeah to what's happening now with rippling and you know bre and ramp.
Hal Casteel: But well,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Anyways, you you said you wanted to
Hal Casteel: I wanted Yeah, I wanted to just let me share real quick.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: share
Hal Casteel: Um, and this isn't so much a show me as much as you know similar. Okay, you guys see my screen? Okay.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Mhm.
Hal Casteel: So this this is O code of tech uh you know so you log
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: in.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: And how how is the is the brand like cuz you just just go to all code tech.ai even before login because you had like the the messaging and and stuff like that,
 
 

00:31:39

 
Will McKinley: Thank you.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: right?
Hal Casteel: Yeah. I don't want to go through all that right now. Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I know it's just few seconds just Yeah,
Hal Casteel: That's that's a lot of stuff. Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I
Hal Casteel: Yeah. There's a there's a basically a front end to
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: know.
Hal Casteel: So yeah,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: it's a website. It's basically just what try to keep it as much a one pager.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: This content model needs to be really thought through.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah. need this be revamped and like that's what we're doing on terms of the communication now and like where Ed will come in handy.
Hal Casteel: Yeah. Right. Gives you the
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: You wanted did you send did you send Ed the email with the advisor types that we want?
Hal Casteel: Pardon me.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Okay.
Hal Casteel: Let let's stay focused on this right now and then you get into the into
 
 

00:32:22

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: All right. Yeah. Yeah. Let's get in. Log in.
Hal Casteel: the So login.
Will McKinley: I tried the demo one at Code of
Hal Casteel: It's got two factor authentication set up.
Will McKinley: Tech.
Hal Casteel: Hang on. Let me get my authenticator here. I think I briefly showed this before. I didn't I there. So, let me refresh this. Okay. Um, you can basically give feedback from anywhere. Uh, this little Oops. This little icon down in the right hand corner shows up on all pages. So, wherever you are,
Will McKinley: the chat icon there.
Hal Casteel: this one here, and you can basically create,
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: you know, a a request type. It automatically picks up your email because you're already registered and logged in. So, we know who it is, right? And just a a real brief feedback, you know,
Will McKinley: That's based on that.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Mhm.
Hal Casteel: so you can do different.
 
 

00:33:53

 
Will McKinley: That's based on that bottom right
Hal Casteel: Yeah,
Will McKinley: button.
Hal Casteel: this one here pops that Stop.
Will McKinley: Okay. That's that's a a different pattern than I think people expect
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: probably on the top.
Will McKinley: because Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Will McKinley: because that that that symbol means chat with a sales rep or chat with a chatbot typically. So sending feedback through that is is a you know it's a it's a different pattern.
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: Just saying just saying doesn't it doesn't matter does.
Hal Casteel: Yeah. I don't know.
Will McKinley: So what's the purpose of
Hal Casteel: Yeah. I don't know if there is a feedback type icon.
Will McKinley: this?
Hal Casteel: I agree that is but
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: No, I mean just cuz right there you have the request access,
Hal Casteel: basically
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: right? So it's just like it should be more like that, right? Like you have something going across and it's just like submit feedback, but once they already have access,
 
 

00:34:41

 
Hal Casteel: Well,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: right? Once they're in in the platform.
Hal Casteel: I didn't want to have them have whatever page they're on. I want them to be able to res to to
Will McKinley: Well, I love the instinct. Uh uh so so what I've uh what I typically do and I usually,
Hal Casteel: to
Will McKinley: you know, I have a lot of icons and I always default to icons, but the problem is with feedback, I I end up saying the word feedback pretty often.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: very clear icon. Yeah. Yeah.
Will McKinley: That's
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Feedback is better than any icon.
Will McKinley: pretty
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Like there's no icon that clearly describes that. What is it going to be like a docs, right? Like a page.
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: No.
Will McKinley: And you want that feedback. So, I I like your your
Hal Casteel: Well, the idea is is that there will you know but the so so anyway you create it's the
 
 

00:35:19

 
Will McKinley: your
Hal Casteel: same format for this popup but the doc you know what type is right and then
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: you just put in and the idea is real quick bing bing boom boom right um but then once you're in your dashboard if you've if you've given feedback right then you
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Mhm.
Hal Casteel: can show your you know what you've submitted prior and this is where you get into the react, you know, the interaction. And now you can add to it. You can upload artifacts. You can and so this is this is where the re, you know, basically the internal whoever this gets assigned to. Right now, this one's not assigned to anybody, but I could see I can assign because I'm a super admin. This little popup I could assign myself say to that, you know.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Will McKinley: school ticket system,
Hal Casteel: I Yeah.
Will McKinley: huh?
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Is a whole ticket system.
Hal Casteel: Yeah. I can make it internal only.
 
 

00:36:20

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: This looks pretty good, actually. This looks pretty
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: good.
Hal Casteel: So I I mean I put some serious thought into this uh just to get it going because you know I did want this because I think it's real critical during the uh but but then the
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: the file. Yeah, for
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: sure.
Hal Casteel: But the the feedback Yeah.
Will McKinley: I like that a lot. That's That's pretty
Hal Casteel: The feedback is a little different than the uh issue.
Will McKinley: good.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Then the documentation and the issue. Yeah.
Hal Casteel: Yeah,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Okay.
Hal Casteel: I wanted to keep those two separate basically.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: So, so but like the issue is the like the bug report or no what's is
Hal Casteel: So, well, I've asked this and that are this.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: different.
Hal Casteel: See the other one? This one is already pre preaned based on what you're selecting,
 
 

00:37:02

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Mhm.
Hal Casteel: right? So because at the header level but you also if you did come into it from this
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: area you can choose which but these are more geared towards internal support
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Uhhuh. But is
Hal Casteel: you know code of tech platform support issues
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: why why is issue?
Hal Casteel: right feedback is different because it
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: So if you go to feedback right like right there.
Hal Casteel: can be more geared towards you know I want this or an a user experience that kind of What's
Will McKinley: But here's the thing. Here's the thing.
Hal Casteel: up?
Will McKinley: The second you have to describe it, we've we've lost it,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Mhm.
Will McKinley: right? So, if you have two completely different sections, then people have to decide, oh, which one do I use? So, uh you know,
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: thinking about it right now,
Hal Casteel: Well, yeah,
Will McKinley: I'm like,
Hal Casteel: that that was one of my questions and I actually struggled with this.
 
 

00:37:53

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I think support. Yeah, keep support and then fe add feedback like add feedback on the support,
Hal Casteel: Should I consider
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: right? Or maybe I don't know if we want to give more attention to everyone giving feedback, right? We just do like a a a header in every single one of them and you
Hal Casteel: Yeah, I can integrate techch suggested that these two things be
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: just
Hal Casteel: merged.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah,
Will McKinley: They should be. Yes. Yes.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I think
Will McKinley: Definitely they should be
Hal Casteel: Okay, I'm going to merge those. But then,
Will McKinley: wearing
Hal Casteel: okay, because I'm an admin, you know, so if you are one of the super users or one of the assignees that manages these things, then you have your list that you're working because you're interacting with the tickets
Will McKinley: Sure.
Hal Casteel: that to which you're assigned. Okay. So I think what I need to do is I need to merge I need to
 
 

00:38:37

 
Will McKinley: So,
Hal Casteel: merge support and feedback and leave a sign as a standalone that only appears if you're an internal support
Will McKinley: it's a filter on the support tickets though.
Hal Casteel: person.
Will McKinley: That's a filter on the support tickets. I I think all three of them are combined.
Hal Casteel: Okay.
Will McKinley: you know you don't have you know assigned is just which support
Hal Casteel: Okay.
Will McKinley: tickets have been assigned to me that's what it is so uh
Hal Casteel: Well, that could be one of the filters at the top,
Will McKinley: best well look at all look at
Hal Casteel: right? Which is assigned to me. That would be a
Will McKinley: all the things you can see all these because you're wide enough what uh when you when you reduce
Hal Casteel: filter.
Will McKinley: the screen that's that's too many things on a menu too many
Hal Casteel: Okay. Well,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: I Yeah. So,
Will McKinley: Thanks.
Hal Casteel: if I if I narrow it down,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: No,
 
 

00:39:26

 
Hal Casteel: it it does this.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: but the point is not even narrowed down, right? Like you have license, products, project, support, feedback, assign team, billing, profile, security. Like it's not about it not fitting the thing. It might fit, but it's it's still a lot.
Will McKinley: You got a bucket. We got a bucket. Uh so
Hal Casteel: I need a I need a I need a modal at the top which filters by the type,
Will McKinley: uh
Hal Casteel: right?
Will McKinley: uh I don't know what you
Hal Casteel: Well,
Will McKinley: mean.
Hal Casteel: I mean I may have submitted feature requests. I may have created uh you know an issue. I may have created a documentation request.
Will McKinley: You
Hal Casteel: I should probably have up here above the actual things I've submitted right here a modal that allows me to fill, you know,
Will McKinley: need a filter icon.
Hal Casteel: Yeah,
Will McKinley: And when you click on the filter,
Hal Casteel: I need a filter icon.
 
 

00:40:15

 
Will McKinley: it allows you to further filter it. And then you need to be able to show.
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: Now, once again,
Hal Casteel: Okay.
Will McKinley: now I see this time and time and again. I posted a link in here, uxpilot.ai. The reason I posted that, uh, you know, and I don't know that it does it every time, but you can see very clearly the spacing is a problem. you if you have the whole top the whole first view of your screen is all header header header header header header header header header that is terrible it's terrible and so the question is how do we make the u the
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: AI aware of that very very key piece which is don't burn through the entire top of the page with bologoney filters and extra padding and spaces and extra content
Hal Casteel: s***.
Will McKinley: because that's what's happening a lot with the
Hal Casteel: Can you can you can you can you write a paragraph or two of the dos and the don'ts from a
Will McKinley: AI.
 
 

00:41:17

 
Hal Casteel: UIUX point of
Will McKinley: Sure. Sure.
Hal Casteel: view?
Will McKinley: I you know I think I have to think that that this is that there's a pattern.
Hal Casteel: Well,
Will McKinley: That's why I posted that UX
Hal Casteel: yes, because to to Matias's point, I would like to build a really strong UIUX agent H.P.003-SKILLS. Uh so the way the way code tech works you have a an agent you have a skill you have a command you know what the command that would call it the uh there's H.P.004-SCRIPTS that called you know that kind of tie it all together you don't need to you know I I'll don't worry about those and then there's uh any tools if there you know like if there were UIUX tools we wanted to call I don't know that there are you know but and then you know basically and then the dos and the don'ts and
Will McKinley: Well, number one,
Hal Casteel: uh
Will McKinley: number one is going to be don't show me a bunch of baloney because I need to get straight to the content. And if the header is taking up all the space,
 
 

00:42:21

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Will McKinley: which it always does with AI stuff, it's like, "Oh, well, I need to add this extra padding, and I definitely want this extra thing, and this extra thing, and this extra thing." No, we need to get to the content immediately. Immediately. Immediately. So, uh, yeah, it's all of that header because it hasn't figured out how to tighten it up and and
Hal Casteel: Well, no, but that's because we're not I'm not specifying.
Will McKinley: and
Hal Casteel: I mean, this is where the design there is a design standard. See, there's a bunch of standards in code of tech, right? Do Yeah.
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: So,
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: you know, I want a UIUX standard, which would be, you know, that would be one markdown document that's nothing about but the standard and then that standard, we create a template for the standard because a new a code of tech customer is going to have their own standard, right? They may have their own design criteria which we would create their st code K code of techch would create from the template the standard for them that then you know like Denilo and his
 
 

00:43:24

 
Will McKinley: be overridden.
Hal Casteel: company. Yeah. But then you have the agent and the H.P.003-SKILLS and all the things that then that that reads the
Will McKinley: Sure.
Hal Casteel: standard right and applies the standard using the H.P.003-SKILLS and the tools etc.
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: That's how the system works.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Will McKinley: I if if we can get into this the the ability to compress that header, that header alone is like that is
Hal Casteel: We could have a header header skill agent that does not I mean think think granularly if you want because one thing that Kodite tech does is it indexes all of these things right it goes into the database it's all searchable and and the you know so when you do a slashwitch which is, you know, which agent or which H.P.003-SKILLS, you know, when you type which it it automatically searches all of its knowledge about itself. It does a self-examination and pulls out the right stuff, standards, H.P.003-SKILLS, H.P.001-AGENTS, etc. So, you don't have to specify which H.P.001-AGENTS. It just finds it for you based on the use.
 
 

00:44:32

 
Hal Casteel: You know, like if if you're doing UIUX, it'll know that it needs those H.P.003-SKILLS. I just don't have a robust UIUX standard H.P.003-SKILLS or H.P.001-AGENTS built into the platform yet. I really need to build that.
Will McKinley: But I bet the I bet some of these things are out there and just, you know,
Hal Casteel: Well,
Will McKinley: and even
Hal Casteel: I I could I could scour GitHub and search for what's out there, but I mean, if if you have you have strong ideas about this stuff,
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: will I mean,
Will McKinley: I definitely
Hal Casteel: I think your ideas about I love the way you think because it's kind of like,
Will McKinley: do.
Hal Casteel: you know, the ultimate keep it simple and, you know, only give the information and you don't like the idea that there's a lot of text and it should
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: just visually present and be self-informative and that's if we can build that very zen,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: that's what we want.
Will McKinley: There are definitely some rules.
 
 

00:45:20

 
Will McKinley: Rule number one, uh don't if you've got a word that's repeated, get rid of it. You don't want repeated words. You don't need to name space uh things when you already know you're in that space.
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: So if you've got patient,
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: you don't need to say patient name. You have you say patient and then name,
Hal Casteel: Right.
Will McKinley: right?
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: that kind of stuff because I see that always repeated and
Hal Casteel: Yeah. All the time. Yeah.
Will McKinley: like Yeah.
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: Yeah. Yeah. It's a pretty common sort of thing and and with there the layouts are already better in in terms of not double framing and stuff like that, but you still have a lot of double framing going on. So, anytime you've got a a a stroke around whatever the component is, that's a possible like, okay, it's a likely problem. the strokes around the content, the strokes around stuff.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Mhm.
 
 

00:46:13

 
Hal Casteel: The definition of a stroke is
Will McKinley: It's a line around the box that contains
Hal Casteel: what? Okay,
Will McKinley: something.
Hal Casteel: got it. Okay.
Will McKinley: You'll notice that all of these things in in uh you know, UX Pilot or whatever,
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: most of them are using toned backgrounds, not strokes, not lines around. Because what ends up happening is the AI says, "Okay, well, here's the page content. Oh, I want the page content to have a stroke around it. Okay, then here's the content that's inside the the content. Oh, and that that's a component. So, I want it to have a stroke around it. So, you end up with stroke stroke stroke stroke stroke stroke a lot of times. And and that's that is a a killer. You have to flatten it visually even if it has sophisticated nesting uh in, you know. So that's that's one of the key things to do is to flatten visually because you don't have to communicate the complexity of the nesting to the user.
 
 

00:47:11

 
Will McKinley: The user doesn't give a crap about the complexity of the nesting. What they want to see is a clear singular element that is where they don't have they don't they don't have to having to think about what the hierarchy is of the component. you know that takes time that takes space and it's irrelevant to the user.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Will McKinley: So um yeah so and it's a tricky thing and it's a tricky thing in in in design as well. I mean I'm I'm you know even before AI came on the scene I was often doing exactly the same thing uh with with designs and stuff like that. It's it's flatten it out, simplify it down,
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: you know. Yeah.
Hal Casteel: So what?
Will McKinley: Anyway, sorry.
Hal Casteel: Oh, I I wasn't showing I while you were talking I wanted to.
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: So this uh just real quick back to so you know basically we have you know user roles you know who we can invite them we can sort
Will McKinley: Yeah.
 
 

00:48:11

 
Will McKinley: See,
Hal Casteel: them well I put quite a bit of time over
Will McKinley: this is way better than it was even like two months ago. I mean, this is way
Hal Casteel: the weekend on this this was one of the things I was working on um so you know we have different types of customers different tiers of customers we can define the period of their how many you like what their max number of containers is, what their cloud workstation uh H.P.009-CONFIGuration is. We can do a batching.
Will McKinley: Can you go back up to the top?
Hal Casteel: What's that?
Will McKinley: Can you go go back? Can you go back up to the top?
Hal Casteel: Yeah,
Will McKinley: Uh, so pilot provisioning.
Hal Casteel: that's this one.
Will McKinley: Okay.
Hal Casteel: This
Will McKinley: So, so let me ask you this. Once you've provisioned it, where do where do the things that you provision
Hal Casteel: that then they go uh here in your licenses.
Will McKinley: go? So, it goes from pilot to license.
Hal Casteel: Well, I was showing you an admin.
 
 

00:49:04

 
Hal Casteel: I'm I'm a super user, so I have the admin dashboard, right?
Will McKinley: Well, the reason I ask, the reason I ask is because you have a typical pattern for standard CRUD and and even when you've got
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: complex elements that have, you know, nested uh data entity types for persistence and understanding, it's typically licenses. Hey, create a new one. You know, if the license is a pilot,
Hal Casteel: Well, there is yeah,
Will McKinley: that's it belongs
Hal Casteel: there is a new license request here and that takes you to here and then then that takes you to
Will McKinley: in
Hal Casteel: your you know now now my uh check you know now I can check out right so that takes two clicks if I want to add a
Will McKinley: Right.
Hal Casteel: list pilot Our
Will McKinley: But what's the difference between a pilot and a license? You know, I don't understand because show up in
Hal Casteel: pilots are by invite only and the that you know I
Will McKinley: the
Hal Casteel: I don't know if we'll keep pilots going forward.
 
 

00:50:02

 
Hal Casteel: Uh but you know the pilot is something that they can request but we are selecting if they are and then we're administering the pilot. I want to be able to give complimentary licenses to our pilot users. They don't necessarily need to be a paid they they don't necessarily they're not going through. So if I come back in here and clear the this is like the checkout process if if they were a real code of tech customer All right.
Will McKinley: I I mean all I'm saying is that if you've got a list of things and you want to add a thing, you have a plus at the top of that list of things. It's a pretty common pattern, right? Uh you hey,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah, that's
Will McKinley: I want I want to I want to make another one.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: hard.
Will McKinley: And and if you separate out the create from the list, then you've got a cognitive you've got cognitive diss. This is you you gota you
Hal Casteel: Are you saying this? Get new license shouldn't be here
 
 

00:50:58

 
Will McKinley: got uh I am saying well
Hal Casteel: or
Will McKinley: no that is where it should be because you got a list of licenses and you got the plus button
Hal Casteel: Okay. Right.
Will McKinley: get new license that's what that is. So,
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: but no, what I was talking about is pilots is is where the pilot is is is disassociated
Hal Casteel: Well, the pilots, yeah, the pilot admin is only available through the admin dashboard that nobody unless you're a
Will McKinley: with the
Hal Casteel: a a you know, a CIS admin level user, do you have access to the admin dashboard?
Will McKinley: So the pilot's doing additional stuff besides just license,
Hal Casteel: Yeah. Yeah.
Will McKinley: right?
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: Because it's it's it's setting it up. It's doing a whole thing.
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: It's still like like I'm trying to understand what the uh data architecture is for these things
Hal Casteel: Well, I
Will McKinley: because it's important to the uh you know user communication like how do you do
 
 

00:51:51

 
Hal Casteel: Well, and this is there here.
Will McKinley: this? But you know sounds like
Hal Casteel: Here's another place I think I may have redundancy.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Active
Hal Casteel: I think the this Well,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: products and active licenses are the same,
Hal Casteel: I think licenses and Yeah, he Let me Let me ask Will a question quick.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: right?
Hal Casteel: So here. Yes. Okay.
Will McKinley: Well,
Hal Casteel: So that's redundant.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah. Cuz add product is adding
Hal Casteel: Uh licenses and products should be one.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: license.
Hal Casteel: Now should I call it licenses or shall I call it my products or something? Maybe I don't know.
Will McKinley: once again, I mean, when you click on products, uh, first of all, licenses are, you know, I mean, this is admin stuff. This is settings and and settings and monitoring are different. You set things once,
Hal Casteel: Correct.
Will McKinley: you know, once you set the license,
Hal Casteel: Well,
 
 

00:52:42

 
Will McKinley: you set it.
Hal Casteel: yeah, but you see both of these pages,
Will McKinley: You you I don't want to see licenses again.
Hal Casteel: the products page and the this the products page is showing what is already and then I have billing which is actually what I've already subscribed to which so I'm wondering can I can I
Will McKinley: This has this has all the
Hal Casteel: consolidate billing products and licenses all into one from a customer point of view
Will McKinley: pieces.
Hal Casteel: or not?
Will McKinley: Absolutely. Yeah. This is the account settings. This is settings. So what you want in this and
Hal Casteel: But but if you're a typical user, you won't see the payment methods and stuff because only the the billing contact can see those.
Will McKinley: you
Hal Casteel: So I guess I have to define even another role which would be the user. Are you a billing contact, right?
Will McKinley: Well, conceptually you have to separate out settings from use. Those are not the same thing.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah, but use is not happening here,
 
 

00:53:38

 
Will McKinley: Settings.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: right? Use will be happening on their terminal or
Will McKinley: Uh,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: whatever.
Will McKinley: okay. So, but doesn't it also can't it? I mean, this is in the off section. Yeah. Bill
Hal Casteel: I think some you there's kind of a not a clear separation of concerns between user role
Will McKinley: it
Hal Casteel: and the type of information that I need to be showing and part it could be a little confusing because I am a super user um meaning that I
Will McKinley: doesn't matter though at the end of the day everything is compartmentalized into u you know their buckets uh ideally and even as a super user if you've got additional capabilities it it should file follow a a hierarchical uh relationship you know so
Hal Casteel: Right. Yeah. So here here's my thinking. You know I've got all these things here. Right.
Will McKinley: if
Hal Casteel: So it's sounding like I can consolidate licenses, products, and billing. That's all customerf facing related to what I bought.
 
 

00:54:45

 
Hal Casteel: Right?
Will McKinley: yeah the header is killing you it's just killing
Hal Casteel: And then this header, this one that I'm mousing
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: No.
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: And even then the the top part which is also the licenses,
Hal Casteel: over.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: devices, products and whatever the numbers right there you have two.
Hal Casteel: Don't you want to keep some kind of header there? No.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: You have the assign like right there you have the the licenses, devices, products and then you also have the total assigned new in progress completed. Like you that a little bit of what we was talking about, right? Like half of the page is covered just with Heather stuff.
Will McKinley: Yeah, more than half. More than half. I I you know Yeah. Uh assigned to you. Well, I mean like we already talked about support feedback and assigned to you are all in the same bucket. But you know the the the pattern of having a tab system, if you're going to have a tab system, that tab system has to be right underneath or even in the top bar.
 
 

00:55:42

 
Hal Casteel: Right up here. Right up here.
Will McKinley: Not all that other stuff needs to go.
Hal Casteel: Right.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Mhm.
Will McKinley: That is,
Hal Casteel: All that white space.
Will McKinley: you know, and you've got welcome back pal,
Hal Casteel: Yeah. We don't need to say welcome back to you because we know who I am.
Will McKinley: you know.
Hal Casteel: Right.
Will McKinley: Well, you could say that where it says log out. It's the same thing as log out.
Hal Casteel: Right. Right. Right.
Will McKinley: Uh you don't need to hit him over the head and then persist that hitting him over the head. You know what I mean? Like it's one thing if you're going to say, "Okay, well, here now we're going
Hal Casteel: So what I'm hearing is that you know if I were to basic I can take all of this have a very maybe only the okay I I mean I see what's obvious here license products and billing those all can get support and feedback they're going to get consolidated and profile File management that can be done
 
 

00:56:32

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Mhm.
Will McKinley: And it's signed.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: through your normal up here anyway,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Right there. Mhm.
Hal Casteel: right?
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: What's the security one?
Hal Casteel: Security is your two-factor authentication and your password.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Which probably can go within profile as well.
Hal Casteel: Yeah, that all moves up into profile. Okay. I I
Will McKinley: Well, it depends if if it's um uh uh company specific or space
Hal Casteel: I
Will McKinley: specific security versus user specific. Yeah. I mean, you get into some kind of like
Hal Casteel: Yeah, there's some rolebased arbback stuff that we would filter out whether you have the
Will McKinley: soft
Hal Casteel: permissions to to set up two-factor authentication, right?
Will McKinley: Yeah. I mean, think ultimately like when they're in the uh AI uh uh system and when they're in the tool uh you go to profile and you could see account and account brings up this
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: stuff, right? You know,
 
 

00:57:26

 
Hal Casteel: Yep.
Will McKinley: and you might have account and then also uh you know tickets because that's what this is. That's a ticketing system,
Hal Casteel: Yeah. That's essentially what Yeah.
Will McKinley: right?
Hal Casteel: this.
Will McKinley: It's tickets or issues.
Hal Casteel: So can
Will McKinley: I'd call it probably issues. It's a pretty common term uh for this
Hal Casteel: can feedback and issues be one can I use instead of
Will McKinley: category and assigned.
Hal Casteel: support which which
Will McKinley: All three of those feedback and
Hal Casteel: three
Will McKinley: assigned those three should be compressed into issues.
Hal Casteel: My god.
Will McKinley: And then when you click on issues,
Hal Casteel: Okay.
Will McKinley: it should show issues at the very top where it says welcome back Hal. And it doesn't need to say issues are where people can tell you that things are wrong. You know, doesn't need to say a subhead.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Just
Will McKinley: Issues is pretty self-explanatory and and we shouldn't waste because real estate is valuable.
Hal Casteel: Oh yeah.
 
 

00:58:24

 
Will McKinley: We can't waste it, right?
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: heat.
Will McKinley: And the AI waste it like crazy at the top. Now that there is a space where you want space for elegance. If you're using it for good effect, it it can be valuable.
Hal Casteel: Well,
Will McKinley: But using
Hal Casteel: space space is valuable for cognitive,
Will McKinley: it
Hal Casteel: you know, recognition, right? Without space, the human eye gets, you know, like starts eyetracking to jump,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: right?
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Will McKinley: Yeah,
Hal Casteel: So,
Will McKinley: I mean I even think you know the code techch.ai all caps is should it be all caps is a is a is a first question. Uh seems pretty loud with that. Um and maybe we eliminate that cont that just show the logo and then show products.
Hal Casteel: Here.
Will McKinley: I mean the the whole thing is to condense the all of the headers all of them into one bar at the top. That's that is the the the hallelujah goal.
 
 

00:59:24

 
Will McKinley: Uh you know I also look look at look at the look at the thing we got dashboard uh you got log out which is the same as the user icon. So that seems like a duplicate to me right?
Hal Casteel: Here.
Will McKinley: You just show the user icon and someone clicks on it and then you can say log out inside of the user icon.
Hal Casteel: Right.
Will McKinley: People don't usually want to log out. Log out is a very rare thing,
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: right?
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Mhm.
Will McKinley: Unless they're in a financial tool or something like that.
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: I don't log out of stuff.
Hal Casteel: I'm logged in.
Will McKinley: Do you guys ever log out of stuff?
Hal Casteel: I've been logged in for a year now to go to
Will McKinley: Right. Right. So that that is a good litmus.
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: How often have you clicked that button? How many screens is it on? That one's on every single screen. So make sure that you get rid of stuff that people don't use or at least nest it down,
 
 

01:00:13

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah. No,
Will McKinley: you know, so we
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: if it should be all on the profile and then like I think that the the security should also be on the profile,
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: right? like security depend if you're saying it depends if it's uh you know company B
Hal Casteel: Can the dash Can the dashboard be in the profile too?
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: why I don't know I think
Hal Casteel: Get rid of that dashboard.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: dashboard be good stand
Will McKinley: Dashboard. First question is what is dashboard?
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: alone
Hal Casteel: Well, dashboard is this collection of things,
Will McKinley: What is
Hal Casteel: which it sounds like we're going to get rid of more than half of them already
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: yeah
Hal Casteel: because well,
Will McKinley: I think that's probably about the right. Yeah, getting rid of about half of them is
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I think the dashboard
Hal Casteel: it looks like security profile uh those are all going up into
 
 

01:00:48

 
Will McKinley: probably
Hal Casteel: this icon. logouts going up into that uh assign feedback and support.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I think dashboard all
Hal Casteel: Those are all getting condensed into issues and then project uh
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: yeah projects I think dashboard should be very heavily focused on
Hal Casteel: projects are probably part of your prof projects are probably part of your
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: on projects right I think that the dashboard is a little bit no I I think that the
Hal Casteel: profile, right?
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: dashboard should really be more that that idea of what we were talking about with will where it's like the feed right per project where you this is the dashboard, right? The dashboard is okay, you've been using code attack for these three projects. Here's where they are percentage- wise, blah, blah, blah. And you that like the dashboard is really focused on projects and how it has been advancing and what you've been doing with these projects, right? Uh everything else I think goes back at the the the headline on the top uh the
 
 

01:01:38

 
Will McKinley: Yep.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: header on the top and then like you know dashboard is really focused on how have your projects been advancing? What have you been building with code detect?
Will McKinley: Yep. Yep. And uh I that's exactly right. And that is the difference between settings and live
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Use it. Yeah.
Will McKinley: content. That's the difference. I I I could see going to projects every morning. I could not see going to licenses every
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Exactly. And then you log into code tech.
Will McKinley: morning.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: You go to your dashboard and it has a clear overview of all the projects you're actively working on. Right. That's that's you just by design.
Will McKinley: You don't even go to your dashboard. So this is a
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: You open into code
Hal Casteel: Well, and the reality is the dashboard at that level is at such a high level.
 
 

01:02:23

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: tech.
Hal Casteel: It has that's not your primary interface in Dakota Tech.
Will McKinley: But it is your morning checkin.
Hal Casteel: It is your morning check-in.
Will McKinley: Actually, I think it
Hal Casteel: And certainly if you're a manager that with a team of people,
Will McKinley: is.
Hal Casteel: that's your that's where
Will McKinley: Well, we've got a team of H.P.001-AGENTS.
Hal Casteel: you're
Will McKinley: I I I I still think it might be potentially. I think that isn't your dashboard. It isn't project that's your that's kodate techch that is the that is the footprint the manifestation of kodate techch and that is synonymous with
Hal Casteel: Well, that's the reporting mech that's the reporting mechanism of code of tech.
Will McKinley: what
Hal Casteel: It's not how you're managing the interaction.
Will McKinley: yeah but it is in a in a
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: But it gives you a sense of knowing where to go check, right?
Will McKinley: way what's going on
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Like what where Yeah. I don't know.
Will McKinley: now I mean people may well be in uh in their individual product project But I think that one of the goals here is to enable multi-
 
 

01:03:21

 
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: project generation because a lot of this stuff is going to be okay, you get going on that. Okay, now what what else?
Hal Casteel: Well,
Will McKinley: What else am I making? Okay, you get going on this other thing.
Hal Casteel: what if what if I'm a project manager or product manager, right?
Will McKinley: Then
Hal Casteel: And I'm uh you know, create new project, right? So, I mean, I would want to be the one that you know sets up the initial inception of the new project, right? Then I'm assigning resources to that
Will McKinley: Well,
Hal Casteel: project.
Will McKinley: the the first question the first question is what is someone going to every morning? I am not going to licenses every morning. And right now that's the first item. The second item is products. I don't choose a new product every morning. I I I choose I I set up my license once and I maybe come back to that a year
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: No.
Will McKinley: later.
 
 

01:04:14

 
Will McKinley: I set up products once and I maybe come back to that six months
Hal Casteel: And once again, if you're a business,
Will McKinley: later.
Hal Casteel: your users aren't going to they don't they're not seeing your products or your licenses anyway.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah, they don't need to
Hal Casteel: They don't need
Will McKinley: The only thing Yeah. So the the key thing here is what is the key what what what is the important
Hal Casteel: to.
Will McKinley: piece of information that people need to see and that's projects. I didn't see a single other thing. Uh well I did see a single other thing. Single other thing is my issues and that's assembled in the dashboard.
Hal Casteel: Right.
Will McKinley: So you go to projects and you see you see your issues in a sidebar say oh okay I want to click on that and zero in on those on on on that issue or that those issues and then you can so you have a dedicated issues you have a
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: dedicated you know home and the home is effectively projects with a
 
 

01:05:08

 
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: sidebar that you know oops you're muted Hal or we lost your
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah. Oh, your sound is gone. Can't hear you. Nope.
Will McKinley: Can't hear you. Shoot.
Hal Casteel: This was Google Me did something here.
Will McKinley: There we go. We can hear you.
Hal Casteel: Okay.
Will McKinley: Yeah, I I do have to drop in a sec here. But uh yeah, this is this is Oh, we lost you again. Hell.
Hal Casteel: Because
Will McKinley: Oh, we heard a little snippet. We heard a little
Hal Casteel: What about now?
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I can hear you
Hal Casteel: Okay. Uh,
Will McKinley: Yep.
Hal Casteel: turn the mic off, turn on work.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: now.
Hal Casteel: Um, we're having heavy rains here. The will, if you do get a chance, think about what, you know, a standard in UIUX, a you know, maybe a a whatnot. You know what? I'll do some research.
 
 

01:06:21

 
Hal Casteel: Let's all do some research on what UIUX is. Send it to Will. Let we'll uh you know kind of think through kind of what if you were you as a
Will McKinley: Okay.
Hal Casteel: UIUX engineer what what would you want to tell yourself to do or not do
Will McKinley: Well, again,
Hal Casteel: right
Will McKinley: and and you hear it through our conversation here. One of the, you know, uh, get rid of extraneous information. Uh, and and that includes, uh, repeated words. You have to simplify words down.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Mhm.
Will McKinley: You have to get to the meat. What is someone in every day?
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Will McKinley: That's number one, right? What what do you what do I want to see every day? And so the analysis or the prompt that's going to help us has got to be uh
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: okay, evaluate how often a user likely goes to each one of these sections. And then the section that they go to the most, make that the landing section.
 
 

01:07:17

 
Hal Casteel: Heat.
Will McKinley: That's the first thing that they see because I don't want a person to have to click in multiple places.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Will McKinley: So there there's the description. There's the prompt. And I I think it's got a logical simple uh definition which is what what is most valuable in a day-to-day aspect to the user.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: And then don't waste real estate portion of it too,
Will McKinley: So there's one yeah there's there's no
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: right?
Hal Casteel: One thing, one thing I have found with the AI is it's not real if if you were to ask that question of AI,
Will McKinley: magic.
Hal Casteel: it's not See, that's where humans really do come in. We're good at figuring that out. AI,
Will McKinley: Well,
Hal Casteel: not
Will McKinley: I think we can write a prompt for it.
Hal Casteel: well.
Will McKinley: I I think if you can if we if we can uh uh clarify it in words, we could say, okay, well, how often does the user go to this tab?
 
 

01:08:05

 
Will McKinley: How often does the user go to that tab? Evaluate how the frequency of access for each one of these tabs and then the one that is accessed the most, make that the landing page,
Hal Casteel: Okay, I'm going to write that prompt today because I think that would be it'd be interesting to see how the interface
Will McKinley: you know. Yeah.
Hal Casteel: changes because that'll be cool, right?
Will McKinley: Yeah. And cut down the number of words.
Hal Casteel: Yeah. And cut down the number of icons,
Will McKinley: G give given anything.
Hal Casteel: the number of uh places.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Will McKinley: Repeat.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Sub pages, you know, like
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: And whatever the whatever the final page is that we're on,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: consolidate
Will McKinley: don't nest all of these headers. Headers must only come in. So, we've got to simplify and flatten the header system. It's it's something that I don't see very often.
Hal Casteel: No, we can figure this out.
Will McKinley: I always see these like extended headers
 
 

01:08:52

 
Hal Casteel: I think it'll be this will be really cool because I mean, you know, we've got, you know, we've got uh Matias is working on the Avat. And if we can make that demo really zing for our first impression, it's going to be very powerful. So,
Will McKinley: And I think these are programmatic.
Hal Casteel: I think we are.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I think it should be.
Will McKinley: I think that I think that we can define these things.
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: Yeah. I I you know it's it's not like we're saying hey uh okay well what is the aesthetic
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Will McKinley: nature of clustering and stuff like that.
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: That that is a harder target simplifying headers
Hal Casteel: Yeah. But this is good stuff because I have built in the core piece with the headless browser with
Will McKinley: down.
Hal Casteel: playright that'll allow us then to demonstrate it dynamically when Codate is building something.
Will McKinley: Cool.
Hal Casteel: So yeah, if we do this and that both at the same time,
 
 

01:09:38

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Will McKinley: Nice.
Hal Casteel: we're going to look like a new version of lovable with a whole lot more power, right? Which would be very cool.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: So I want to solve this problem kind of in a really elegant and clean
Will McKinley: Really cool. Yeah.
Hal Casteel: way.
Will McKinley: And it actually would be a differentiator. And I I honestly I think I think it's accomplishable. I think we can get there.
Hal Casteel: No, we can I know.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I think so too.
Will McKinley: It's
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: And I mean that's that's really where I I was coming in from when we were discussing the the
Will McKinley: just
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: agreement like last Friday, right? Because that's where I see that you can add a lot in terms of like, you know, the the value of of creating this UIUX H.P.001-AGENTS and and whatever, but at the same time, we don't want you to touch the code, right?
 
 

01:10:22

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: So it's like we we need to blind ourselves in a way here but uh like whatever you can't and I don't know if it's like okay you do it in McKinley media and then you know share it in repository with hall
Hal Casteel: Well,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: and hall adds it to code attack or if no code at all you know you just you know send some doc whatever and
Hal Casteel: no. This is just like what Will's doing right now. I mean, it the him sending us this is a you know,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: we
Hal Casteel: this is advisory stuff. This is I don't see any different,
Will McKinley: Yeah. Yeah.
Hal Casteel: you know, I don't see any complication here.
Will McKinley: Well,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Okay.
Hal Casteel: This is
Will McKinley: I think that we're talking about like some prompt, you know, h how do you define the the uh the
Hal Casteel: well, we're talking about a very key element of human AI interaction.
Will McKinley: issue?
Hal Casteel: And if we if we figure this out,
 
 

01:11:03

 
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: that's going to be so powerful. I mean, I Yeah.
Will McKinley: I I think it's figure I think we can I think we
Hal Casteel: Yeah. Well, this is the week that I want to solve that one because, you know,
Will McKinley: can
Hal Casteel: we're right at the point now where the back end, you know, the back end is built. Uh, basically, now it's a matter of, you know, the, you know, I've been letting the AI create the dashboards because I I, you know, helps me think about them. And I even I if I hadn't in a sense done that already, you wouldn't have been able to react to it, right? So that's a good thing. Now it's like map reduce,
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: you know, map reduce is such a powerful concept, right? Where you take a lot of information,
Will McKinley: Right.
Hal Casteel: you you shrink it and then you end up with a final result. And this I want that final result right now.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Awesome.
 
 

01:11:51

 
Will McKinley: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: That's where
Will McKinley: Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Yeah. And you you're approaching it exactly the right way, I think.
Hal Casteel: yeah it's better to have too much than too little at that phase because you it's if you have too
Will McKinley: Yeah. Yeah.
Hal Casteel: little you you might forget something that's important right.
Will McKinley: Yeah. Yeah.
Hal Casteel: Okay let's go will I know you got to run but this is super helpful for me.
Will McKinley: And you don't want to Yeah.
Hal Casteel: Uh Matias great job with Avetch.
Will McKinley: I gota run.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: keep that and I'll no
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I know it's and I think that one as a joint venture is really good and we can we
Will McKinley: Yeah. Great.
Hal Casteel: I'm I'm super excited about Della. You you're really going to like him will he's a you know he's a very amiable
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: can
Hal Casteel: CFO analytic leader. I mean he's and a young guy with a lot of energy and a company behind him with a brother that you know with 300 developers.
 
 

01:12:31

 
Will McKinley: Right.
Hal Casteel: So if we click with those guys that's a powerful uh thing for us. The way I met him is that he and his wife came uh and almost bought our house and then I got to talking.
Will McKinley: Oh, really? How funny.
Hal Casteel: He looked like an interesting guy and he was Brazilian and we you know I said you know come in my office. I said you're too interesting to I don't want to sell you my house. I want to work with you. Okay.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: All right.
Hal Casteel: Okay. Thanks. Yeah. Bye.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: You will.
Hal Casteel: Uh good session there.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: So yeah,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: No, I think we got a lot in terms of like getting our UI works and and I feel that's one of that's one
Hal Casteel: yeah, this timing is perfect for
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: lingering concern like with all of this AI, you know,
Hal Casteel: both
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: tools, right?
 
 

01:13:22

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: You tell cloud code to build something, it builds something that's functional, it still looks very AI generated, right? You know you tell code attack to build something it will build something much more thorough that goes in a lot in depth but the look is still the same as just general cloud code right so we if we can have that clear differentiated or that like okay everything that's built by code detect you know its designs are popping it's looking really good now that on itself is just unattractive and then whenever they see the depth and what's behind the curtain and you know it's a completely different game then I think we're off to the races And everyone's going to be wanting to use code attack, right? Because why
Hal Casteel: Yeah. No, I Yeah, this Yeah. So,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: not?
Hal Casteel: I'm gonna I'm actually gonna uh I think I'll spend the day on the UIUX agent H.P.003-SKILLS. Kind of nail that down because you need it now, right?
 
 

01:14:16

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: What's your plan with how soon are you planning to show Danilo
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah. I mean,
Hal Casteel: something?
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I I this I wanted to just like sit down with him and show this, right? But I mean,
Hal Casteel: Well, maybe it's a little s I mean,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: the the No,
Hal Casteel: maybe we should design
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: no, no. It's like because he's already talking with these guys. I feel like this and I'm saying, "Hey, we're further refining with our we're developing our code attack H.P.001-AGENTS for everything. It's fine." Like that's fine. But I I want to be constantly checking in with him.
Hal Casteel: Okay. Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: We were supposed to grab coffee yesterday.
Hal Casteel: Okay. Keep you know what you're doing with him.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah. Yeah.
Hal Casteel: I mean Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I know what I'm doing with him.
 
 

01:14:45

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: It's fine.
Hal Casteel: Okay.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: And and what he wants from us,
Hal Casteel: Uh
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: he wants us to really, you know, think through what would it cost in terms of development once they raise money to like do the full shebang app, right? And and also you said 10%
Hal Casteel: My thinking is somewhere you know uh
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: were equity, right? To be worth our while, but like what's like the cost? Because we want equity plus money,
Hal Casteel: yeah I mean well this is where the valuebased thing comes in right so if he
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: right? Yes.
Hal Casteel: let's say that his his cost is you know basically if I let's just use dollars
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: All right. Say it's a 10x reduction,
Hal Casteel: Right.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: right? Whatever he would do for $500,000, we give it to him for
Hal Casteel: Right.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: 50.
 
 

01:15:30

 
Hal Casteel: And but they buy the tokens plus tokens. We're not buying tokens.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah. Yeah. But tokens is an extra 200 bucks a month on top of that, right? There's nothing
Hal Casteel: Well, closer to 400 now because, you know, when you're working on something big like this, you know, I mean, it's it that depends on how fast he wants to go. But I mean, I would argue 400 a month on tokens is probably a better budget because Right.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah, because then it's for me and for you. So, and we're both working on Yeah.
Hal Casteel: Exactly. Yeah. That allows us to All right.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: On top of the $50,000,
Hal Casteel: Um Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: that's not much,
Hal Casteel: Well, I was thinking,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: right?
Hal Casteel: you know, 50 50,000, you know, paid. I mean, it's probably a six-month project.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I I think it can be way faster.
 
 

01:16:17

 
Hal Casteel: Uh, I mean,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Oh, I I mean like you you look look at the
Hal Casteel: I've been working on I think I think you're probably right because this I keep going back,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: G.
Hal Casteel: you know, when I really started the whole refactoring on Kodate Tech was back in August,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: right?
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Oh, look.
Hal Casteel: But then I then then I did it again since September.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Look.
Hal Casteel: And so what it's done since or no, not September, since November 27th. That's six weeks ago.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah,
Hal Casteel: So, you know,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I think it's it's a six like Oh,
Hal Casteel: Well,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I look through the po the the I I'll do another push now with
Hal Casteel: I think whatever you think it is, whatever you think it is,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: this.
Hal Casteel: we're going to do double because if we think it's six weeks, we're going to say three months.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
 
 

01:16:54

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah. No,
Hal Casteel: Okay.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: but it's it's like do do the do I'll do another push now with this new designs and everything
Hal Casteel: Yeah. But see, you've already got how many how much do you have?
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: to like
Hal Casteel: A week into this now or what? How much time?
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: three days, you know, and it was part time and I was doing other stuff.
Hal Casteel: Yeah, you can see how much you you can get a lot done now fast. I mean tech
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: That's what I'm saying. Like, oh, I I did I did maybe like two days worth of work and it was like it it already moved a month on its
Hal Casteel: pretty.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: timeline projected, right? So, it's like look at the thing. Look, do do I'll do another push on GitHub.
Hal Casteel: Yeah, I will.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Look what it's already been built.
 
 

01:17:26

 
Hal Casteel: Okay.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: But like the the foundation, everything it's already been built,
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: right? The security and stuff like that. I want to do another analysis like implement the the things that I did that I looked for played, you know, replet, not replet, rippling and everything. And there's like it created some eight new actions, eight new features things to implement on the plan. If he says, "Yeah, go ahead with that, I'll implement it on the plan." Right? But I I think it's like a six week project at most, you know.
Hal Casteel: No, you're talking an accounting system with testing and stuff.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Maybe
Hal Casteel: You're talking three months, been a month.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I don't know.
Hal Casteel: Yeah,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Okay.
Hal Casteel: you we're talking an accounting system here.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Oh, no. Yeah, I know. We are right. And and I feel like the integrations,
 
 

01:18:04

 
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: implementations, but like do to be able to just take like one random client like say us or like Dilu himself, you know, acting and be on the fully functional platform and and and doing the things like What's
Hal Casteel: And that means Yeah. And that means them, you know, being pretty available to make sure that we don't we're going to need regular check-ins because,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: that?
Hal Casteel: you know, once again, you know, their involvement, you know, we they can't just specify and walk away basically, right?
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Of
Hal Casteel: Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: course.
Hal Casteel: If we want really good results, we need a lot of engagement from them. So, all right.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah, I'll check in. Maybe I'll I'll have a coffee with him in Baldwin here this afternoon.
Hal Casteel: Um yeah once you do that
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Uh I sent him a message earlier.
Hal Casteel: yeah I mean my thinking would be somewhere between 50 and 100 grand uh you know paid
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I think yeah I think that if we do that plus the equity they they won't be that happy you know but
 
 

01:18:56

 
Hal Casteel: in
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: um but yeah maybe 50 they can they can accept.
Hal Casteel: well 50 and we get we get to use it internally.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah sure.
Hal Casteel: for our customers our and our customers will pay a small licensing fee because we'll treat it as a
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Mhm.
Hal Casteel: standalone product.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: Something like that. Okay, that would be my you know because I want it myself for us. I want it for our customers. you know, just like the workflow analyzer, it'll be another product basically, right?
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Amen.
Hal Casteel: And uh and yeah, 10% and u 50 grand. I'm I'm comfortable with that.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah. All right. Let's let's
Hal Casteel: That'll give you and I a paycheck for six months. So that's huge for us.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: So Okay.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yes. Yes. Let's talk to I'll see if I can meet him this afternoon.
 
 

01:19:58

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I'll let you know how it goes. But um No,
Hal Casteel: And then they and then they you know and it wouldn't be 50 grand upfront but you know basically you
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: no, of course. This this is like they want so they
Hal Casteel: know it'll be you know it'll be well I would say 10 let's make it 10 grand a
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: wanted
Hal Casteel: month uh that they would pay us and you know and with a total of uh uh 60 grand. Okay.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah. And and then I'll I'll I'll tell him like because this basically he wants an
Hal Casteel: Okay.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: MVP
Hal Casteel: And and if they give and if they give it to us up front, we'll discount it uh to to 50 grand if they want to pay us in one
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Okay.
Hal Casteel: trunch.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah, because what they'll likely they'll likely do whole is we they want us to do some work on it ahead of time,
 
 

01:20:36

 
Hal Casteel: Okay.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: you know, for free.
Hal Casteel: Which we've already done. I mean,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Just No,
Hal Casteel: we've already we it's like we put in 10 grand already, right?
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I mean it says that we've already put in 400 grand worth of build, right? But I mean,
Hal Casteel: No, no, seriously.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: I don't know those things.
Hal Casteel: I mean, you're talking intellectual property investment as well. I mean,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah. But the intellectual property investment came from them,
Hal Casteel: this isn't No,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: right? They already had the specifications.
Hal Casteel: but yeah,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: They already have been.
Hal Casteel: but the build came from our intellectual property. Do you So,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: I mean, and you can't devalue that. That's what value based price of
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: And that's no and that's where the 10% equity is coming from,
Hal Casteel: all
 
 

01:21:13

 
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: right? Which is the work that we're doing ahead of time. But like we we want to get to a a very simple MVP just a demo screens for the investors I
Hal Casteel: Yeah. Well, yeah,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: already created.
Hal Casteel: let's make sure that your MVP is and then I would ask them if they have a design dock, you know, like a specification for the type of interface or, you know, they may have designers down in Brazil that can whip out Yeah.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: They do. I'm sure they do.
Hal Casteel: that could whip out a design dock,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: which will be, you know, your your font specification, your color specification, all that stuff, look and feel. basically ask them if they can provide that as part of their spec because that'll tighten up the design a
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: lot, right?
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: For sure. For sure. Yeah. I'll talk to But basically then it was okay.
 
 

01:21:50

 
Hal Casteel: That that
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: So, it's 10% for us to get to the MVP that works and then they're probably going to go fund raise. They fund raise, they're probably going to get, you know, a million, two million, you know, 50k for the build or we can then if if it's conditional they do more, then we can do 100k just for the build, but like use more money towards actual marketing and distribution because we want the company to succeed as well, right?
Hal Casteel: No,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Then we're part owners,
Hal Casteel: no, I agree. I mean,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: invested in their
Hal Casteel: I'm I mean,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: success.
Hal Casteel: I'm all in on this project because this fits this fits our ideal customer profile. It gives us something that we want that I was going to build
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: and give us a footprint in Latin America from the get-go,
Hal Casteel: anyway. Yeah. I mean,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: you know.
Hal Casteel: it's hitting on a whole lot of, you know, what I what we want.
 
 

01:22:30

 
Hal Casteel: And I honestly now that I'm down here, I'm seeing, you know, if I come into like Marco, I was at Marcos uh yesterday uh or Saturday.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Mhm.
Hal Casteel: Uh you know, sitting around the table there, there were, you know,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: a couple bill, you know, a couple billionaires. And you see, if I bring Denilo into meet Marcos with Lura, you know, we could end up getting the Lura uh finance system account.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Who is like? Oh, no.
Hal Casteel: Luris,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah. Yeah. The the bookstore, right?
Hal Casteel: yeah, I'm,
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: The bookstore business.
Hal Casteel: you know, I want to I want to do business with Marcos eventually, but I gotta I gotta have somebody like Denilo in my on my team to be able to get uh Do you see what I mean? That that would because they need an upgrade.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Yeah.
Hal Casteel: They need a full ecom, you know, smartly integrated with Amazon, blah blah blah. They're partnering with Amazon now.
Matias Meirelles Van Vliet: Mhm. Yeah.
 
 

Transcription ended after 01:23:59

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